Background discussion by Celina Jacobs (Rote Fahne TV) with Stefan Engel on the NATO crisis. Background discussion part 10

Celina Jacobs (Rote Fahne TV): We are here for a new background discussion. Welcome, Stefan Engel. Today we are going to talk about the current developments around NATO. The current Security Conference in Munich will go down in history. It is of global political significance.

Stefan Engel: Yes, that's right. Immediately before this Security Conference, Donald Trump held his long-announced telephone conversation with Vladimir Putin on the understanding that peace talks on the Ukraine war would now begin. Whether this will work or not is another matter. What is striking, however, is that this is being done over the heads of the Ukrainian government and also the European governments, the USA's allies. It is an uncoordinated solo effort that is plunging NATO into a deep crisis.

NATO is an alliance in which a wide variety of partners work together supposedly on an equal footing. But Trump is now also practicing his “America First” policy in the area of foreign policy, provoking his European partners. There has been quite a commotion about what this all means. Ukrainian President Zelensky has announced that he will not accept any peace that is not concluded with Ukraine itself. The European allies held hectic meetings on what conclusions should be drawn. But the fact is that NATO is at a turning point and, in its current form, is no longer capable of acting.

Celina Jacobs (Rote Fahne TV): You say Trump is plunging NATO into a deep crisis. What does that mean exactly?

Stefan Engel: It looks like the USA is pulling out of joint NATO projects, especially the support for Ukraine. They are saying that the Europeans should now solve their problems on their own, knowing full well that the European military is not in a position to compensate for the support that US imperialism has provided to the Ukrainian armed forces and Ukrainian society to date. This is a new situation and an opportunity for Putin, who can now push through his demands to a very large extent.

Trump is making far-reaching concessions to Putin. On the one hand, he says that under no circumstances can Ukraine join NATO, which was always an option in the past. On the other hand, he says that Ukraine must make concessions to Russia by ceding Ukrainian territories. Roughly one fifth of Ukraine is currently occupied by Russia, especially the Donetsk region, one of the most resource-rich areas in the world.

This would sweep one of Ukraine's key war aims off the table. It wanted to defend its national sovereignty and push the Russian troops out of Ukraine. This is obviously no longer an issue at all.

At the same time, Russia is seen as a military threat by NATO. The European governments currently do not see themselves in a position to counter this threat independently. This is a new situation that immediately led to the special meeting in Paris.

It is part of US policy to divide the EU and the NATO partners. Trump has skillfully prepared for this by bringing proto-fascist and extremely reactionary governments such as Orban in Hungary or Meloni in Italy on board and establishing certain special relationships. These governments are on Trump's side, while the main representatives of the European countries are against the Trump peace plan.

This situation obviously was deliberately brought about. It is also related to the fact that Trump in general rejects international organizations such as the UN, the World Health Organization, the Paris climate agreements, etc. He is beginning to systematically dismantle international organizations in order to simultaneously increase the weight of the USA. This is an aggressive imperialist foreign policy. It is not so much based on alliances; rather, the USA wants to determine what happens in the world everywhere. This naturally conflicts with the imperialist interests of other countries.

Celina Jacobs (Rote Fahne TV): Trump's actions are a downright provocation for the European partners.

Stefan Engel: Of course. Trump's Vice President Vance criticized European countries for not cooperating enough with fascist parties. In Germany, he called for electing the AfD (Alliance for Germany) and for including the AfD in the government in future. It is a novelty that the USA is interfering in domestic political disputes, in elections, and now wants to transport its fascist policies to other countries.

Vance clearly said that the AfD had to be supported, that the fight against migrants had to be stepped up, and that “freedom of speech” had to be restored. Fighting fascist parties and propaganda violates “freedom of speech”. This is a very demagogic fascist argument. It shows how closely the new stage of aggression of US imperialism is linked to the spread of fascism on the international level. Preparation for war and fascism are very closely connected and must be dealt with in combination in future.

Celina Jacobs (Rote Fahne TV): How are the Europeans reacting now to what Trump is doing?

Stefan Engel: The Europeans are dumbfounded. They don't want a break with the USA and are still hoping they can work together.

At the same time, they are also using the situation to further their own imperialist ambitions. At the meeting in Paris they discussed how to rearm together in future. Trump has demanded that the Europeans increase their arms spending to five percent of the gross national product. Calculated in terms of the federal budget, this would be over 40 percent. This would be a war economy. So Trump is openly calling for a war economy in Europe, and the Europeans do not clearly reject this. They do say “that's a bit much”. But in particular fascist parties like the AfD are real fans of it. The AfD immediately declared that this was the right thing to do. AfD candidate Weidel says that wouldn't even be enough. Trump's fascist allies are the protagonists of this aggressive policy.

At the same time, it is also a method of boosting the economy. During the whole discussion, arms stocks have risen immensely. Within a few days, the Rheinmetall stock alone rose by almost 300 points from 700 to almost 1000. All the arms stocks have literally exploded, by 20, 30, 40 percent.

So armament is also supposed to be a way of kick-starting the economy. Vance has openly criticized governments for spending far too much on social issues. They should put the money into armaments and, of course, buy them from the USA.

So this is about armament financed using the social gains of the broad masses. This gives a new meaning to the reactionary turnabout announced especially by the CDU/CSU and AfD. We can expect many things to happen.

Celina Jacobs (Rote Fahne TV): Chancellor Olaf Scholz always pretends to be so cautious. But it was his German government that already adopted defense policy guidelines in 2023 – the paper is called “Operation Deutschland”.

Stefan Engel: That is correct. This paper envisages comprehensive rearmament of Germany, a tremendous militarization. This refers to the build-up of the Bundeswehr (the German armed forces), which is to be made ready for war by 2029. It is also a call for German industry to gear itself to war production. It also refers to an ideological campaign to create the “will to defend” among the population. This obviously is causing them a lot of problems.

This Operational Plan Germany is designed to give Germany the strongest army in Europe and a leading role in Europe. Of course, this has far-reaching implications for all areas of the economy, politics, etc.

If you take a close look at this paper, you will see that it does not match the official statements of the Scholz government. Scholz pretends that we have to be careful. Especially before the elections, he presents himself as the one who will save Germany from military adventures. In reality, this paper “Operation Deutschland” comes from the federal government and is coordinated with it. It states that the Bundeswehr should once again become a conscript army. With “educational work”, propaganda for the Bundeswehr is to be launched in all areas of society, in schools, universities, on television, etc. There is a lot in store for us. It is to be paid for with the social benefits of the population, which are to be radically cut.

Celina Jacobs (Rote-Fahne-TV): What does the population say about these plans?

Stefan Engel: The population is not overjoyed bythe war preparations. That is one of the main problems. You cannot wage war if you do not have the population behind you. We will experience a wave of chauvinism.

There are already a number of narratives to justify why “we” should rearm at all costs: A war of aggression by the Russians is said to be imminent. We saw this as a justification back in the 1970s when the Soviet Union still existed. It is now being expanded even further with the war in Ukraine. Fears are being created among the people that we have to defend ourselves. The aim is to reduce reservations towards war.

This fear propaganda is at the heart of this chauvinistic argumentation. It is at least one-sided because the aggression not only comes from Russia, but also from NATO. After reunification, NATO pledged not to expand eastwards – and today it stands on Russia's border.

Almost all of the former CMEA countries that were under the influence of the then Soviet Union have now become members of NATO and staging areas against Russia.

The Ukraine war is also about how to incorporate this large industrialized country, rich in raw materials, into one's sphere of influence: Will one succeed in bringing Ukraine into NATO or the EU, or will Russia manage to bring Ukraine back into its sphere of influence.

So it is one-sided to say “the Russians are the aggressors and we are the defenders”. That does not correspond to the facts. It is an imperialist conflict that is the result of the enormous rivalry that has built up in recent years. It began with the global economic and financial crisis of 2008–2014, when internationalized production fell into a deep crisis. As a result, fascist governments developed in the imperialist countries and conflicts over spheres of influence intensified. Russia occupied Crimea. Israel's war against the Palestinians, against Lebanon and against various countries in the Middle East can also be counted as such, as can the war in Sudan. This is always about spheres of influence.

This debate must be conducted in such a way that imperialism as a whole, which goes hand in hand with war and the threat of war, with militarization and now also with fascism, must be confronted. That is the new conclusion we must draw.

Celina Jacobs (Rote Fahne TV): So what is the MLPD's response now? What is to be done at this time?

Stefan Engel: First of all, this controversy has also led to a crisis of the so-called free democratic basic order. In other words, it is no longer adequate how things have been governed and how politics has been conducted up to now. A different style is emerging. They would prefer to govern by decree as in the USA. Christian Democrat (CDU) chancellor candidate Merz has already announced that he feels called upon to do this. He wants to close the borders on the very first day after the federal elections. But there is no parliament on the first day. So that obviously seems to play less and less a role, as we can see in the USA.

Since the first day of his inauguration, Trump has governed without a cabinet, without a parliament. He works only with decrees. US courts have overturned various decrees. Now a dispute is pending before the Supreme Court as to whether Trump's executive power is higher than the law. If it is decided that Trump can do whatever he wants, then we really have fascist conditions. This tendency exists in all imperialist countries.

It is an important question what people want. Do they want to support the trend towards fascism, for example by voting for the AfD, the CDU/CSU, the BSW or the FDP? Or do they oppose it? This important decision on the direction to take is now on the agenda.

Celina Jacobs (Rote Fahne TV): Thank you very much, Stefan, for this informative interview. We hope it has provided new ideas and new arguments. We look forward to the next time, which will be on February 24. We will meet there to evaluate the election.